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Mr. Titleist
#1 Posted : Saturday, August 10, 2013 7:17:16 PM(UTC)
Mr. Titleist

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Hi All,

Could anyone confirm what is the feel of the shoulders in the downswing in terms of angle of movement? I.e is the correct feeling that of the right shoulder going downwards and to the left?

For some reason something that has always stuck in my mind was something in the original dvds whereby JH said the downswing will feel like you are coming over the top but you cannot. If that was the case would the right should not feel like it is higher than the left shoulder whilst turning to the left? I tend to use this as my feel but I suffer greatly from hitting too much from the inside.


Cheers,


Rob
smitty49
#2 Posted : Sunday, August 11, 2013 2:40:32 AM(UTC)
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The upper torso turns around a bent over spine. Take two clubs hold the first in front of you on a angle that represents your spine angle. Take the second club and put it across the first shaft at 90 degrees, represents your shoulders, now rotate the shoulder shaft around the spine shaft at 90 degrees and see how steep your shoulders have to be. if you look the shoulder shaft is pointing inside the zone. + Take this plus and turn it so the vertical line matches your spine. can you see how steep the horizontal line would be.

Hope this makes sense and helps.

Smitty
nlk10010
#3 Posted : Sunday, August 11, 2013 11:36:09 PM(UTC)
nlk10010

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Originally Posted by: Mr. Titleist Go to Quoted Post
Hi All,

Could anyone confirm what is the feel of the shoulders in the downswing in terms of angle of movement? I.e is the correct feeling that of the right shoulder going downwards and to the left?

For some reason something that has always stuck in my mind was something in the original dvds whereby JH said the downswing will feel like you are coming over the top but you cannot. If that was the case would the right should not feel like it is higher than the left shoulder whilst turning to the left? I tend to use this as my feel but I suffer greatly from hitting too much from the inside.


Cheers,

Rob


Your question is interesting as I've just come back from the range, where I had another awful session trying to get this OPS down pat. I'm not implying it's the swing's fault, I intend to keep working at this for at least a few more months (I've been at it for a couple of weeks and 50 buckets of balls :) ). I don't want to give up now, and the fact that I CAN hit some solid shots gives me hope. Anyway, today I seemed to have success when I was centered over the ball in the downswing and tried to sweep my arms around my body, like the famous merry-go-round. I need to put emphasis on my left shoulder (I'm a righty) or I won't shift my weight at all, but it seemed that this out-of-body experience looking straight down at the ball, keeping the shoulders on what seemed like a level plane (I'm assuming "feel isn't real"), turning around my center, got me further. I hit my awful shots when the emphasis during the downswing seemed to shift to my right arm and I started dropping my right shoulder, hitting from underneath (like the "ferris wheel"). This tendency also seems to depend on whether I rotate my forearms counter-clockwise, so the right hand re-establishes its position on top, as I sweep left. I like to finish with the right hand on top and the clubface closed, my arms and club pointing all the way to the left. Otherwise I will finish in the classic "scoop" position, shaft pointing upwards in front of me, right hand under left and wrists cocked upwards. 

When I get the courage up I'm going back to the range and see if I can work on this idea.


Good Luck.
Matt White
#4 Posted : Friday, August 16, 2013 3:21:54 PM(UTC)
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NLK you have so much going on your giving me a headache. Have you ever heard of paralysis by analysis. Why don't you just think about two things at the most while you swing like Tom Kite says. The ops takes time, go back to basics. Turning level is a nono, you want a steep turn. I'm getting an aspirin. Matt
nlk10010
#5 Posted : Friday, August 16, 2013 4:38:16 PM(UTC)
nlk10010

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Originally Posted by: Matt White Go to Quoted Post
NLK you have so much going on your giving me a headache. Have you ever heard of paralysis by analysis. Why don't you just think about two things at the most while you swing like Tom Kite says. The ops takes time, go back to basics. Turning level is a nono, you want a steep turn. I'm getting an aspirin. Matt


Well in fact, for me, trying to think of even two things during the swing can be a problem, but I'm trying to latch on to something I can feel that generally results in a good shot.

Look, my issue has always been, whether we're talking OPS or TPS, one of hitting fat, primarily because I try to power the ball with my right arm and shoulder during the downswing and, I think, drop that shoulder in the process. My recommendation above wasn't to swing level during the backswing, which I think you were talking about; rather, it was trying not to drop my shoulder during the downswing and through the ball, which is an overemphasis I need to feel in order to avoid dropping that trail shoulder. From reading the books I believe I understand the importance of bending over more at setup of the OPS and the backswing being on a plane perpendicular to the spine, hence steeper. It's just this damn sound of the club hitting the mat in the downswing is driving me batty.

Hey, I'm a beginner, you're much more experienced in this and I will continue to read and reread the books, but I'm just trying to develop a feel that works for me.

Sorry if I've just given you another headache (:)), thanks very much for taking the time to post and help me out.

Edited by user Friday, August 16, 2013 4:41:43 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

TF
#6 Posted : Friday, August 16, 2013 5:22:15 PM(UTC)
TF

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Nlk,

I, too, am a beginner. One of my faults is hittingbfat shots, too. Do yourself a big favor and get a lesson or two if you havent already. You may be surprised how much easier it is to start striking the ball well and having good ball flight. If you cant get a lesson in person with a PT instructor, then try online lessons. Thats what I have done and it has helped tremendously.
TF
#7 Posted : Friday, August 16, 2013 5:22:15 PM(UTC)
TF

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Nlk,

I, too, am a beginner. One of my faults is hittingbfat shots, too. Do yourself a big favor and get a lesson or two if you havent already. You may be surprised how much easier it is to start striking the ball well and having good ball flight. If you cant get a lesson in person with a PT instructor, then try online lessons. Thats what I have done and it has helped tremendously.
nlk10010
#8 Posted : Friday, August 16, 2013 5:27:27 PM(UTC)
nlk10010

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Originally Posted by: Tom Fast Go to Quoted Post
Nlk,

I, too, am a beginner. One of my faults is hittingbfat shots, too. Do yourself a big favor and get a lesson or two if you havent already. You may be surprised how much easier it is to start striking the ball well and having good ball flight. If you cant get a lesson in person with a PT instructor, then try online lessons. Thats what I have done and it has helped tremendously.


I have tried lessons. Tried some with a PGA Apprentice, some with a PGA member but not Teaching Pro (both at driving ranges), some with a former New York/LI Teaching Pro of the Year, supposedly. None helped my hitting fat. My current teacher couldn't figure it out so he recommended the OPS. I seem to be having a bit more success, that's why I'm sticking with it for a while. As I say, while it may be due in part to not shifting my weight forward, it seems that the reason I'm not shifting my weight forward is the dropping of my right shoulder/side in the downswing. The OPS gives me a different motion, leveling out the downswing.

Your online lessons: were they OPS lessons or something like SwingFix?

Ken Stephen
#9 Posted : Friday, August 16, 2013 5:59:05 PM(UTC)
Ken Stephen

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My input would be to get the book Solid Contact, this will help you understand the faults and cures for your swing. Remember the aim here is to play golf and impact is the most important part of your swing, the swing type is of no significance as long as impact is correct and repetitive. Trying to nail one type of swing with every element in place will be a long journey, so get impact and work your swing from there. Best regards Ken PT instructor.
Ken Stephen
#10 Posted : Friday, August 16, 2013 5:59:05 PM(UTC)
Ken Stephen

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My input would be to get the book Solid Contact, this will help you understand the faults and cures for your swing. Remember the aim here is to play golf and impact is the most important part of your swing, the swing type is of no significance as long as impact is correct and repetitive. Trying to nail one type of swing with every element in place will be a long journey, so get impact and work your swing from there. Best regards Ken PT instructor.
Ken Stephen
#11 Posted : Friday, August 16, 2013 6:00:27 PM(UTC)
Ken Stephen

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And yes a lesson with a PT instructor or on line is a real benefit to get you on the right track.....
Ken Stephen
#12 Posted : Friday, August 16, 2013 6:00:27 PM(UTC)
Ken Stephen

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And yes a lesson with a PT instructor or on line is a real benefit to get you on the right track.....
nlk10010
#13 Posted : Friday, August 16, 2013 6:07:25 PM(UTC)
nlk10010

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Originally Posted by: Ken Stephen Go to Quoted Post
My input would be to get the book Solid Contact, this will help you understand the faults and cures for your swing. Remember the aim here is to play golf and impact is the most important part of your swing, the swing type is of no significance as long as impact is correct and repetitive. Trying to nail one type of swing with every element in place will be a long journey, so get impact and work your swing from there. Best regards Ken PT instructor.


Thanks, Ken, I do have that book, and one thing the OPS has done for me is to highlight the importance of face position at impact. It sounds funny since, as you point out, that is the main factor in determining the quality of the shot, but by analyzing the OPS I see how it tries to simplify matters and keep the golfer from having to manipulate the face with the hands. I am much more aware of that aspect of the swing now.


On another note: Hey, Webmaster, could you straighten out the site please. Multiple alerts of the same reply and automatically logging someone out is a royal PITA. :)

Edited by user Friday, August 16, 2013 6:08:01 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

TF
#14 Posted : Friday, August 16, 2013 7:05:41 PM(UTC)
TF

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nlk,

I would seek lessons from a PT certified instructor.  I assume face to face is best. But if, like me, that isn't an option for you, you might like to try some online lessons.  There are links on this site to set you up for that.  The PT instructors can identify your faults and fixes quickly and accurately, and then provide you with drills to assist you in getting the right feel and movement down. I am an average duffer and after two online lessons I am already doing much, much better.  On my own, all I did is confuse myself chasing red herrings this way and that.

The video lessons are very reasonably priced. 

I also enjoy having a player profile.  It is very helpful.

Tom

Originally Posted by: nlk10010 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Tom Fast Go to Quoted Post
Nlk,

I, too, am a beginner. One of my faults is hittingbfat shots, too. Do yourself a big favor and get a lesson or two if you havent already. You may be surprised how much easier it is to start striking the ball well and having good ball flight. If you cant get a lesson in person with a PT instructor, then try online lessons. Thats what I have done and it has helped tremendously.


I have tried lessons. Tried some with a PGA Apprentice, some with a PGA member but not Teaching Pro (both at driving ranges), some with a former New York/LI Teaching Pro of the Year, supposedly. None helped my hitting fat. My current teacher couldn't figure it out so he recommended the OPS. I seem to be having a bit more success, that's why I'm sticking with it for a while. As I say, while it may be due in part to not shifting my weight forward, it seems that the reason I'm not shifting my weight forward is the dropping of my right shoulder/side in the downswing. The OPS gives me a different motion, leveling out the downswing.

Your online lessons: were they OPS lessons or something like SwingFix?

Edited by user Friday, August 16, 2013 7:06:46 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

TF
#15 Posted : Friday, August 16, 2013 7:05:41 PM(UTC)
TF

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nlk,

I would seek lessons from a PT certified instructor.  I assume face to face is best. But if, like me, that isn't an option for you, you might like to try some online lessons.  There are links on this site to set you up for that.  The PT instructors can identify your faults and fixes quickly and accurately, and then provide you with drills to assist you in getting the right feel and movement down. I am an average duffer and after two online lessons I am already doing much, much better.  On my own, all I did is confuse myself chasing red herrings this way and that.

The video lessons are very reasonably priced. 

I also enjoy having a player profile.  It is very helpful.

Tom

Originally Posted by: nlk10010 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Tom Fast Go to Quoted Post
Nlk,

I, too, am a beginner. One of my faults is hittingbfat shots, too. Do yourself a big favor and get a lesson or two if you havent already. You may be surprised how much easier it is to start striking the ball well and having good ball flight. If you cant get a lesson in person with a PT instructor, then try online lessons. Thats what I have done and it has helped tremendously.


I have tried lessons. Tried some with a PGA Apprentice, some with a PGA member but not Teaching Pro (both at driving ranges), some with a former New York/LI Teaching Pro of the Year, supposedly. None helped my hitting fat. My current teacher couldn't figure it out so he recommended the OPS. I seem to be having a bit more success, that's why I'm sticking with it for a while. As I say, while it may be due in part to not shifting my weight forward, it seems that the reason I'm not shifting my weight forward is the dropping of my right shoulder/side in the downswing. The OPS gives me a different motion, leveling out the downswing.

Your online lessons: were they OPS lessons or something like SwingFix?

Edited by user Friday, August 16, 2013 7:06:46 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

nlk10010
#16 Posted : Friday, August 16, 2013 7:14:22 PM(UTC)
nlk10010

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Originally Posted by: Tom Fast Go to Quoted Post
nlk,

I would seek lessons from a PT certified instructor.  I assume face to face is best. But if, like me, that isn't an option for you, you might like to try some online lessons.  There are links on this site to set you up for that.  The PT instructors can identify your faults and fixes quickly and accurately, and then provide you with drills to assist you in getting the right feel and movement down. I am an average duffer and after two online lessons I am already doing much, much better.  On my own, all I did is confuse myself chasing red herrings this way and that.

The video lessons are very reasonably priced. 

I also enjoy having a player profile.  It is very helpful.

Tom



Let me see, there's a guy local to me @ Wheatley Hills but he might be a bit rich for my blood (they don't even let me drive through Wheatley Hills). Either way, the OPS has shown me enough that I want to pursue it, and pursue it the right way.

Edited by user Friday, August 16, 2013 7:15:21 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

TF
#17 Posted : Friday, August 16, 2013 7:33:57 PM(UTC)
TF

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nlk,

If he is a certified PT instructor, I'd go for it. But I don't want to tell you what to do. Everyone has their own circumstances.

My PT online instructor is a 1st assistant to Matt Kuchar's coach. I sure my lessons don't make him a dime. And I am never going to be any kind of a great golfer. It's just a hobby for me. I play on a nine hole course out in the country. Couldn't be more humble circumstances. Yet my PT instructor, who probably works with some of the best golfers on the planet, treats me like I really matter to him. He just loves the game and loves coaching on every level, apparently.

That's one of the things I love about golf. The really good coaches and players are eager to help even the humblest of us. Because they know we all share a love of the same wonderful game. Tell me where I could find a world class coach who would take time to show me how to throw a football in my backyard or shoot a basketball in my driveway.

In any event, it is fun to be able to connect with another newbie. I hope I have not been overbearing in my advice, because I am no expert, that's for sure.

Cheers!
TF
#18 Posted : Friday, August 16, 2013 7:33:57 PM(UTC)
TF

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nlk,

If he is a certified PT instructor, I'd go for it. But I don't want to tell you what to do. Everyone has their own circumstances.

My PT online instructor is a 1st assistant to Matt Kuchar's coach. I sure my lessons don't make him a dime. And I am never going to be any kind of a great golfer. It's just a hobby for me. I play on a nine hole course out in the country. Couldn't be more humble circumstances. Yet my PT instructor, who probably works with some of the best golfers on the planet, treats me like I really matter to him. He just loves the game and loves coaching on every level, apparently.

That's one of the things I love about golf. The really good coaches and players are eager to help even the humblest of us. Because they know we all share a love of the same wonderful game. Tell me where I could find a world class coach who would take time to show me how to throw a football in my backyard or shoot a basketball in my driveway.

In any event, it is fun to be able to connect with another newbie. I hope I have not been overbearing in my advice, because I am no expert, that's for sure.

Cheers!
nlk10010
#19 Posted : Friday, August 16, 2013 7:41:50 PM(UTC)
nlk10010

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Originally Posted by: Tom Fast Go to Quoted Post
nlk,

If he is a certified PT instructor, I'd go for it. But I don't want to tell you what to do. Everyone has their own circumstances.

My PT online instructor is a 1st assistant to Matt Kuchar's coach. I sure my lessons don't make him a dime. And I am never going to be any kind of a great golfer. It's just a hobby for me. I play on a nine hole course out in the country. Couldn't be more humble circumstances. Yet my PT instructor, who probably works with some of the best golfers on the planet, treats me like I really matter to him. He just loves the game and loves coaching on every level, apparently.

That's one of the things I love about golf. The really good coaches and players are eager to help even the humblest of us. Because they know we all share a love of the same wonderful game. Tell me where I could find a world class coach who would take time to show me how to throw a football in my backyard or shoot a basketball in my driveway.

In any event, it is fun to be able to connect with another newbie. I hope I have not been overbearing in my advice, because I am no expert, that's for sure.

Cheers!


No apologies necessary, I appreciate being able to exchange ideas with someone in (roughly) the same circumstances.

The pro is, I believe, certified, as I got him off the directory on this site. I'm also glad to know that online lessons are a viable option.

I've found in most things that, generally and all else the same, the more confident someone is in their ability the nicer they are. For example (and this is just coincidence, has nothing to do with my professional stature) I've known a couple of Nobel Prize winners who couldn't be nicer or more generous. They don't need to prove themselves, ever; of course you have to be good-natured as well, but many times bitterness comes from dissatisfaction with oneself, IMHO. I guess the same goes for those involved with golf at the highest levels.

Edited by user Friday, August 16, 2013 7:43:16 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

 1 user thanked nlk10010 for this useful post.
TF on 8/16/2013(UTC)
TF
#20 Posted : Friday, August 16, 2013 9:41:36 PM(UTC)
TF

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Nlk,
Many of the gentlemen posting on these threads are PT certified. Pretty cool.
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