Hi All,

My game has been pretty bad of late, so much so that I went down to the driving range and started to experiment with a 2ps this morning.

I was certainly hitting the ball better but it is no something I want to pursue. However, It got me thinking about what I am using in the OPS to hit the ball.

In its crudest sense, I see the 2ps as using the left arm to take the club away and bring it back down to hit the ball (I appreciate there is shoulder turn in there as well).

In my OPS I have primarily been using my body to take the club away and bring it back down to hit the ball. However, after dabling with the 2ps this morning I decided to try applying primary use of the arms to the OPS. This meant I started using the right arm to take the club away and then bring it back into the ball.

In simple terms can the ops be thought of as a back arm hit whilst the 2ps is a front arm hit?

Have I been going wrong using only the body to hit the ball?

Thanks in advance,

Rob

Yes you need to use your arms.

Jim has always said that the golf swing gets its power from two engines:
1.    The body turn (pivot)
2.   The arms

In the one-plan swing, the body is the dominant engine and the arms the secondary engine (with the right arm the dominant arm).

In the two-plane swing, the arms are the dominant engine (with the left arm the dominant arm) and the body the secondary engine.

The fundamentals of how the body turns (pivots) and how the arms swing are different for the one-plane and the two-plane golf swing.

In my ops I have found - after a long battle - that BOTH arms must work for a correct op arm action. The "right arm dominant" emphasis led me to forget about the left arm, that it must turn down and square the clubhead at the start of the inner circle before the right forearm is thrown. This understanding of sequence is merley to conceive the different actions of the two arms. Actually, I find that the arms must work simultaneously. Left arm turns down or "rolls" down to the start of the inner circle and the right forearm throws. This discovery has been the secret for me and since then my ops is an absolute pleasure. rgds,

Unfortunately, there is not a concrete answer to your question.

Jim has some players that are "body dominant" and some that are "arm dominant". I don't believe Jim cares which motor you feel the most so long as both work properly to produce a "correct and repeatable" impact.

The short answer here is to go with the feel or swing that allows you to hit the ball the best most often. You'll enjoy your round much more when you're not trying to figure out how much of a percentage of body vs. arms to use.

Hope this helps put your mind at ease. Best of luck to you.

Hi,

try to perform backswing in that order :
1, Hands first
2. Arms second
3. Shoulders and body third

But .. (it's alway one ) you could do that in a very simple way (reference 1 : something like lawnmover move): Perform/do just takeoff (it's just a feel) "full in" and then perform downswing. In order to do that you have to go to your left side in clear hips (change of directions in swing). You should do takeoff in Matt Kuchar style  (below are 3 pictures I want you to do(feel!!!) just something like from zero to second picture) And if you'll have some  momentum in that everything else in backswing should take care of it self and focus only to the downswing. Take a video of that and you'll hopefully see  some changes. And if that will work 2U ...you can scramble around other minor things/moves later.





Cheers,
M

Thanks for all the responses everyone, they have been most helpful!!

It would interesting to get some input from all those Certified Instructors out there

Mr. Titleist, in response to your initial post, I’d say that you’re correct in thinking of the one plane swing as a back arm throwing motion and the two plane swing as a lead arm pulling motion.

In the two plane swing it’s primarily a left arm pull, though you may also feel the outside of the right forearm coming down. You’re set up relatively close to the ball with the left arm oriented to the target line and you simply pull down with the left arm. Key, of course, in the two plane downswing is domination by the arms as they separate from the shoulders with a bump of the left hip.

The one plane swing is very different and it’s important to understand the difference, especially if you’re converting from the two plane swing. So I’ll go into more detail.

In a correct one plane backswing the club is on the left arm plane pointed out beyond the ball at the top of the back swing. The most common mistake made is to pull with the left arm until the left arm is at the ball. But when you do this you’ve got a wildly open club face that you’ve got to close about 130 degrees to hit the ball, a club that’s going to continue to close another 130 degrees.

This is why a one planer on the outer circle is always fighting pushes, hooks and slaps to the left. He’s all over the place. The solution is to get the club on the back arm plane right away and this is done by keeping the lead arm tight and dropping the hands to the inner circle so the right arm is pointed at the target line and the left arm is pointed at the inner circle. The right arm turns and drops down near your right front pocket. You are returning to the relationship you had between your right and left wrists midway in the first half of the backswing. The motion from there is simply to move the handle around on the inner circle with acceleration. Turning the body helps accomplish the correct repositioning of the arms and for many players is just about all they need to do to find the inner circle.

So, yes, the one plane downswing is very much a back arm throwing motion.

But, there's definitely a role in the one plane downswing for an active lead arm. It just doesn’t happen like a two plane downward karate chop sort of pulling action. The lead left arm should learn to rotate and draw around to the left. Left arm dominant one planers playing right handed will benefit from training the left arm to make this move correctly.

The question I have is what is your preference? Do you feel more comfortable swinging your arms up and down as your body turns? Or, do you feel more comfortable swinging your arms around you as your body turns? Now that you’ve had the opportunity to try both ways of swinging a golf club you may want to go with the way that feels most comfortable to you.

Dave,

Thank you very much for such a comprehensive response. It has reinforced my belief that I have slightly misunderstood what I am meant to be doing.

With regards to the following comment:

"In a correct one plane backswing the club is on the left arm plane pointed out beyond the ball. The most common mistake made is to pull with the left arm until the left arm is at the ball. But when you do this you’ve got a wildly open club face that you’ve got to close about 130 degrees to hit the ball, a club that’s going to continue to close another 130 degrees. "

Do you mean akin to the picture of Pernice below or have I misinterpreted? The green line is meant to be what you want to happen, the red is what to avoid.




Also do you think my intention to take my focus away from body pivot and more towards the hit of the arms (in a circular fashion) is acceptable? I am definately a one planer as I think of the swing as a merry-go-round not a ferris wheel.



Thanks in Advance,

Rob

Rob, take a look at photo 3.1 (p. 34) in Master Class. This is what I'm referring to -- the left arm is pointed out beyond the ball at the top of the backswing. If you pull with the left arm you'll do what Jim illustrates in photos 3.11 and 3.12 (p. 47). You can read there the consequences of pulling.

Instead, what you want to do from the top as you pivot your body is immediately reposition your hands to the inner circle. See photo 4.17 on p. 68. It's a combination of dropping or driving your wrists straight down and turning your body. Notice the relationship of Jim's wrists in photo 3.14 on p. 48, how the right wrist is on top of the left. Now notice their level relationship in photo 3.1. In the downswing you return them to their stacked (right on top of left) relationship illustrated in photo 4.17 (p. 68). You're going to do all this as you pivot, which is illustrated in photo 4.16 (p.66).

So, the body pivot and the arm action go together. If a player has had a tendency to pull with his lead arm he's got to learn to stop doing that and find the inner circle by repositioning his hands. As he develops that ability he'll want to also learn to make a correct one plane body pivot to facilitate moving his hands around on the inner circle. For someone who has always swung his arms around his body, a good body pivot may be sufficient to get the arms on and around on the inner circle.

Both motors are important and they have to work together. If you are arms dominant, like Tom Pernice for example, you may think primarily about your arm action, with your body cooperating. (Do you tend to swing your arms very fast? If so, you're probably arms dominant.) If you are body dominant, like Peter Jacobsen for example, your arms tend to do the right thing as they cooperate with the pivoting body. Jake thinks more about his body motion. Tom thinks more about his arm motion. But both players use both motors correctly to make great one plane golf swings.

Generally speaking an approach where you learn to make a correct one plane backswing, learn to find the inner circle by repositioning the wrists, learn to get on your lead leg, and learn to move the handle around on the inner circle with the arms in concert with a correct body pivot works well.  The one plane swing is definitely a two motor method, though the dominant motor tends to vary from one player to another. 

I am following this post with interest as I think I am body dominant, and have been working with my arms to match up.

Dave H or others, from FO I notice coming down that my rear arm is not connected to my side, or that it has been left behind. There is a gap between my rear arm and my body that is larger than anything I can find on youtube. I note most OP pro's have a tight upper rear arm to the chest. My arms dropped, but they were left too far behind? I think this changes the circle and causes fats, flip hooks, and the odd push. So, I have been working with my arm action (twist & throw, re-stacking of wrists) to match up to my body action. Sound right?

Dave,

Thanks once more for taking the time to compose such a detailed response. I will have a look in the masterclass book when I get home tonight when hopefully it will all become cystal clear in my head.

I certainly don't have trouble pulling with the arms, it is more a pull with my body whereby the arms do not do anything with any purpose, they are just pulled along behind the body. Both my backswing and downswing are flat, particularly the latter which suffers from a distinct drop of the arms at the beginning (which looks like a 2ps move). I would go as far as to say that my arms don't even feel floppy such is the lack effort & force I seem to impart with them.

The golden question which I need to figure out is whether I am body or arm dominant. At present I could not answer that question as I have always thought the body must control the swing and that controlling the swing with the arms was something to be avoided. It is one of those things that got into my head when I first started playing circa 10 years ago and has unforunately stuck. Like many people my eyes weren't open to the fact that the game can be playing a variety of ways, I thought there was one way and that was it, how wrong I was!!

I know that I'm rambling on a bit but I hope my problems, experiences and thoughts will  be others can relate to and thus help them as well.


Many Thanks,

Rob

Dave,

I have now had the chance to look through the referecnes you provided in the Masterclass book and they are excellent, they have given me some very good thoughts and feels to work on. However, there was one bit I'm not quite following, which is this bit:

Rob, take a look at photo 3.1 (p. 34) in Master Class. This is what I'm referring to -- the left arm is pointed out beyond the ball at the top of the backswing. If you pull with the left arm you'll do what Jim illustrates in photos 3.11 and 3.12 (p. 47). You can read there the consequences of pulling.

Instead, what you want to do from the top as you pivot your body is immediately reposition your hands to the inner circle. See photo 4.17 on p. 68. It's a combination of dropping or driving your wrists straight down and turning your body.

With reference to 3.11 and 3.12, are these not backswing elements? Or are you purely using the pictures only as a reference (with the accompanying text to be ignored is this instance) to show that pulling with the lead arm would lead to results that visually resemble those pictures.


Thanks,

Rob

You are right, Rob. I was skimming through images looking for ones that contrasted with 4.17 and used those. (Another good image besides 4.17 is 4.29.) There are a number of down swing images showing the club on the lead arm plane, but they pertain to tilting the right shoulder, raising the spine, leading with the right elbow or thrusting the right hip and seemed too exaggerated for the point I wanted to make.

Thank you for the clarification Dave, once again it is much appreciated.

Rob, the best place to go for a complete explanation is Secrets #1. Go to 13:00 for Jim's discussion of the right arm, but this entire DVD should be watched by both one- and two-planers -- many times. This is great stuff!

Dave, thanmks yet again, revisiting this DVD has really reinforced the conclusions formed in this thread. One comment really stood out to me in the DVD, it was something along the lines of you cannot hit with the right arm too soon.