Tim Chong:

I've read a lot of your posts and they are really outstanding. I was just curious what your background in golf is and your playing ability.

Thanks for the great posts,

Matt

Jim,

I’m sorry if my post was the one that broke the camel’s back and caused you to cry “uncle”.

I am “harping” on this issue because I am fortunate to belong to a club that has several X-PGA tour players as members (even our pro is a friend of yours). On the range, I have asked two of them about your “"Elbows Up, Arms Across Drill". Both cringed.

One firmly believes that Peter does take the club back as “deep” as he claims. And the other is trouble about the drill.

I have read your book (the one plane sections many times) many times and I am committed to following the one swing fundamentals. I just want to ensure that I understand them correctly.

Posted By Golfaholic on 7/14/2005 8:20:01 PM


Jim,

I’m sorry if my post was the one that broke the camel’s back and caused you to cry “uncle”.

I am “harping” on this issue because I am fortunate to belong to a club that has several X-PGA tour players as members (even our pro is a friend of yours). On the range, I have asked two of them about your “"Elbows Up, Arms Across Drill". Both cringed.

One firmly believes that Peter does not take the club back as “deep” as he claims. And the other is troubled about the drill.

I have read your book (the one plane sections) many times and I am committed to following the one-plane swing fundamentals. I just want to ensure that I understand them correctly.

Posted By mrodock on 7/14/2005 8:13:42 PM

Tim Chong:

I've read a lot of your posts and they are really outstanding. I was just curious what your background in golf is and your playing ability.

Thanks for the great posts,

Matt

Matt,

Thanks for your compliments. I am just one of the regular Joe's, a mid-handicapper, who took up golf 5 years ago. I don't like to declare myself knowledgeble in the golf swing -- Jim Hardy and the other authors who wrote the books I've read -- deserves all the credit.

Jim Hardy's book has a wealth of information which it was easy to understand and share with fellow golfers.

Tim Chong

Peter Jacobsen great ballstriker, as if we needed more proof.

I just looked up Peter's ballstriking stats on the Champions Tour so far this year, OFF THE CHARTS! He hasn't played enough rounds for his stats to be official (for him to be ranked) he has played 14 rounds and you need 24 rounds to be ranked. Peter is hitting 79.1 percent of the fairways, tying him for 6th and even more impressively he is hitting 78.6 percent of greens in regulation which is 2.6 percent better than next best Tom Jenkins (through the Ford Players' Championship).

Signed,

Matt

In my post above, the third paragraph should read:

"One firmly believes that Peter does NOT take the club back as “deep” as he claims. And the other is TROUBLED about the drill."

The typos need correcting for the post to make sense regarding their concerns about the “Elbows Up, Arms Across Drill".

I can discard their concerns once I know that I have interpreted the drill correcting – particularly given that JH states in his book that the drill “…trains both arms in a slightly exaggerated manner…”

Allow me to address the arms issue once more in two regards. First, the drill does slightly exaggerate what is absolutely orthodox. It makes your right elbow slightly higher and more behind you and your left arm slightly tighter and lower on your chest. If someone ever got there, they would still be very correct and one hell of a player. It would not be wrong by any stretch of the imagination. I state repeatedly in the book that it is ok if your right elbow gets too high and too far behind you, even to the point that it might "fly". There are a large number of great players that have/had "flying right elbows". It is a diaster to not get the elbow far ENOUGH, behind you. It is no harm if it is too far behind you. The same with the left arm getting a little too low and tight to your chest. If such a thing was bad for a golfer, then Hogan, who had a very low and very tight left arm, needs to appologize and return a bunch of trophies. His left arm was often below his shoulder plane.

The real issue here is acceptance. Good players and most teachers have been brain washed to believe that ALL SWINGS must keep the arms IN FRONT OF THE BODY. To consider anything else is heresy. But as I point out in great detail in the book, doing so destroys one-plane swings. But that is a very bitter pill for many in golf today to swallow because they have been touting arms in front for a long time. If there was any one issue that got me back into teaching golf it was this exact piece of such bad instruction. Getting the club amd arms behind you is just what a one-planer must try to do. Watch any old film of Hogan, Snead, Knudsen, Palmer, etc and you will see the arms go so abruptly inside and behind them that you will think they are taking them between their legs. The key is what you do from there. If you turn the hips and not the shoulders also on the downswing, or tilt the shoulders on the downswing or force the right elbow back out in front of your right side in the downwing, then a CLUB STUCK BEHIND YOU WILL RESULT. The answer to a club stuck behind you is not to keep it in front of you!!! The answer is to learn how to turn your upper body correctly around a bent over spine, while keeping your right elbow up and behind you and your hands close on the inner circle. For a one-planer to keep his arms in front requires him to then slow down his body and time the arm swing with the body turn....JUST LIKE A TWO-PLANER...which is exactly what has been happening to all one-plane instruction in the last few years.

Brandle Chamblee did a analysis of Peter's swing on Golf Central last Sunday just after his win at the Ford Players Championship. He showed and talked about this very thing. About how all great players take their arems to the inside and behind them and then turn them back out on the downswing, just slightly above the plane they were on in the backswing. He was so right on this and it is the reason that I chirped in on this thread in the first place. The show was in fact the genisus of this thread. I would recommend every one-planer to watch that swing analysis

Jim Hardy

JH,

Thank you so much for addressing and clarifying the “arms issue”. More broadly and importantly, thank you for your “HERSEY”!!!!

I’m sure I speak for tens of thousand of golfers who when they first took up the game - swung the club “around”. Then they took a lesson. At that lesson they were told - like I was told - by my so-called instructor, and I quote directly: “I have never seen anyone as inside and laid-off as you are”.

Well, until your book – the combination of my natural tendencies, and what I was TOLD TO DO, produced a mixture of the two swing patterns. And although I struck the ball well at times, it was never that consistent.

NOW I am focused and have a trusted roadmap. Without your book and teaching I would lack that COMMITMENT!!!!!

Thank You, Thank You

The above post should read "HERESY"

I may be a "hunt and peck" typist – BUT now thanks to JH, I will hold my ground with X-PGA tour players when discussing swing philosophies.

Posted By JH on 7/15/2005 3:59:22 PM


Brandle Chamblee did a analysis of Peter's swing on Golf Central last Sunday just after his win at the Ford Players Championship. He showed and talked about this very thing. About how all great players take their arems to the inside and behind them and then turn them back out on the downswing, just slightly above the plane they were on in the backswing. He was so right on this and it is the reason that I chirped in on this thread in the first place. The show was in fact the genisus of this thread. I would recommend every one-planer to watch that swing analysis

Jim Hardy

Jim, right on. From the late 80's up to a couple of months ago when I read your book and found this Web site, I attempted to follow the advice of a golf guru who shall remain nameless. Let's just say, I was Lead down the wrong path of keeping the arms in front of the body, getting the shaft quite vertical on the backswing, and shallowing it out to the shaft plane at address on the downswing. So many positions, so little time. Your book has rejuvenated my game and vindicated the way I learned to swing the club as a teenager back in the 50's. Thanks!!

Dear Jim,

I've been woking on the 1 plane swing for 2 months and have had good results with increased distance and accuracy but not consistantly. I play to a 8 handicap and I'm not flexible at all nowhere near paralell. The problem I'm having is one I raise up a lot on the downswing and two the first move down I'm struggling with whether its starting your left hip a fraction first or just turning your shoulders back as fast as you can I'm confused. In addition I took a lesson from someone in the Pinehurst area who said he was familiar with your book and he thought I was swinging on plane. The only thing he had me do was to slow done my swing and keep a consistant tempo. He did not get into any techinical adjustments. At the range for the most part I hit the ball great but on the course I struggle with the two above mentioned problems. My ball flight with woods and longer irons on misses go straight right 10 to 15 yards off target. If you or any one else has any thoughts that might help I would greatly appreciate it.

Thank you,

Ken

Pretty soon, Ernie Els will discover he, too, has been Lead down the garden path. Look at his swing plane from a decade ago. Quite classical one plane. For that matter, look at Michelle Wie's swing at 13 - before she'd been "instructed" - and it's a thing of one-plane beauty. It's better dead than lead when you're a golfer.

Lefty

PS JH, I know you will soon tire of answering a thousand questions, so I'm going to throw out mine again on the Hogan/Vijay hip firing. Why does it work so well (I've felt it and had some astonishing ball-striking rounds with it) and why is it that it's so easy to screw up? When I had the hips TURNING, it was magical, but now I'm firing them and they somehow keep SLIDING and my spine angle goes out, tilt, yada yada yada, blocks and, if I flip, hooks. (It's no secret that Vijay, too, loses his spine angle, as you can see in his finish). There must be a surefire way to make this work because, as I said, turning the hips hard and letting the club "fall" on top of the ball with soft hands/arms is the most exhilarating way to hit a golf ball I've ever experienced.

Best,

Lefty

Posted By Lefty on 7/16/2005 4:35:29 PM

PS JH, I know you will soon tire of answering a thousand questions, so I'm going to throw out mine again on the Hogan/Vijay hip firing. Why does it work so well (I've felt it and had some astonishing ball-striking rounds with it) and why is it that it's so easy to screw up? When I had the hips TURNING, it was magical, but now I'm firing them and they somehow keep SLIDING and my spine angle goes out, tilt, yada yada yada, blocks and, if I flip, hooks. (It's no secret that Vijay, too, loses his spine angle, as you can see in his finish). There must be a surefire way to make this work because, as I said, turning the hips hard and letting the club "fall" on top of the ball with soft hands/arms is the most exhilarating way to hit a golf ball I've ever experienced.

Best,

Lefty

Lefty,

I am not Jim but perhaps I can provide some insight. If incorrect, I'm sure Jim and the others would point it out to me.

The reason why I think you're struggling with the hip sliding is because you're not turning the shoulers in CONJUNCTION with the hip turn. Vijay Singh often told interviewers that he learned how to fire at the ball with his upper body as hard as he can, provided that he clear the hips first. Maybe that is the answer to your problem.

For me, it's easy to visualize the hip sliding out of turn because it is independent of the shoulder rotation. I can keep my shoulders still while rotating my hips.

Remember, Jim Hardy said that the shoulder turn must be more aggressive than the hip turn because it has a lot more rotation to cover. The shoulders and hips are part of the TORSO that is the engine of your swing. That is why I believe that starting the downswing with your hips gives it a head start without giving the chance for your upper torso to catch up.

Tim Chong

Posted By JH on 7/15/2005 3:59:22 PM


Brandle Chamblee did a analysis of Peter's swing on Golf Central last Sunday just after his win at the Ford Players Championship. He showed and talked about this very thing. About how all great players take their arems to the inside and behind them and then turn them back out on the downswing, just slightly above the plane they were on in the backswing. He was so right on this and it is the reason that I chirped in on this thread in the first place. The show was in fact the genisus of this thread. I would recommend every one-planer to watch that swing analysis

Jim Hardy

Can anyone, including Jim, tell me how to go back and check out thiis segment with Chamblee? Is it available on the Golf Channel site somewhere? Thanks.

I would also like to know if the Chamblee segment is available on the Golf Channel archives. I haven't been able to locate the particular segment everyone is referring to.

Jim,

This is an outstanding post. Thank you.

Erik

In reaction to the topic "LIFTING ARMS," I'm bringing this early thread forward. It contains several informative posts by Jim Hardy that are worth reading. The one I want to point out is the post of7/13/2005 07:40 A.M. Note there his comment that he worked with Peter on the "left arm low and tight across the chest in the backswing..."

During the recent certified instructor summit, Jim commented that many players get the "low and tight" part of his instruction but are missing the "across the chest" part as they focus on pulling the right elbow back. They tend to collapse the lead arm as they retract their right elbows.

What you're trying to do in the backswing is EXTEND your left tight across your chest, and the right elbow has to go back to accomplish this. A good way to feel the right relationship is to extend your left arm tight under your pec across your chest then place your right hand in its position. Your right elbow will be in the right position.

I see extending the lead arm tight across the chest as a fundamental of the first half of the one-plane backswing. Very few of the swings I see posted on this forum show the lead arm coming tight and extended right away in the backswing, though.

Once you achieve this position halfway back, simply continue turning in the zone and moving your right elbow back and up in relationship with the turning shoulders. Let your arms rotate as you finish and your lead arm will climb your chest to its natural position at the top. (Notice, by the way, how high the right elbow has to go to enable the right shoulder to achieve its correct in-zone position at the top.)

Another suggestion for those of you who are accustomed to exercising more control with your left arm in the backswing is to drill moving your left arm on its own. Take the club in just your left hand and practice extending your left arm tight across your chest and feeling it rotate up your chest as you set the club on plane. Reach back with your right hand to take your grip. There's nothing wrong with doing left arm drills like this in either the backswing or the downswing. In fact, it can be very helpful to do this both in the backswing and the downswing. In the downswing, let the left arm feel on its own how it needs to rotate palm up close to the chest and move around on the inner circle with the left elbow leading back up the shaft plane on the left side. If you're a former two-planer your lead arm was trained to move differently in the downswing, so drilling the left arm through the correct motion on its own can be very helpful in getting it to feel its right role in the one-plane swing.